Kringles_Helper on 9/16/2008 9:04:12 PM wrote:
Create a community garden!
A) Creates one of the most basic elements of "Homeland Security", local food supply...according to Sun Tzu.
B) Builds community. People grow what they use...and Roanoke has some diverse cultures...each cooking with different herbs and ingredients.
C) Use the garden to feed the Homeless and the Hungry. I know many people complain, but it is noble to be the place people think to seek generosity.
D) Low cost. Gardening supply does not have to be expensive...but plan your water and bed systems first...engineer the garden...very "Green"...
E) Make Roanoke the capital of "Green"...until I build the castle/"Oxford of Green" over the dam at SML...
F) Let's make some GOOD news!
*Wink*
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Walker on 8/7/2008 8:56:17 AM wrote:
All my previous joking aside, I liked old Roy Stanley. I think that would be a great memorial to a good man and his family.
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tigerlilly on 8/6/2008 5:14:11 PM wrote:
Walker,
Vice-Mayor Lea had proposed to rename it for Roy Stanley.
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tigerlilly on 8/6/2008 5:11:53 PM wrote:
Justafan,
You are correct about who "plays golf" at Countryside. Very diverse indeed - from many ethnic backgrounds. The fondest memories I have are on Father's Day and yes, Mother's Day watching sons and daughters playing with their fathers and mothers. How about those Countryside women winning the City-County Tournament? The debt service is high due to the way they financed it ... amortized for 15 years at 6.25%. Primarily interest these past 2 years.
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Justafan on 8/6/2008 9:46:44 AM wrote:
I take offense to the notion that golf is a rich white man's game. I am white, but far from rich. I have played many rounds of golf with diverse groups of people. Male and female. I hope Countryside can remain a golf course. If it is kept up it can be as enjoyable as any course around. People bought homes around it because they wished to live on a golf course. How would people feel if they bought a home at Smith Mtn Lake and two years later, APCO decided to drain the lake?
YoungandhomeNW: I do have one pet peeve and you can call me a picky old fool if you wish.
Golf is a noun, not a verb. People do not golf, they play golf. You wouldn't ask someone if they baseball.
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Walker on 8/6/2008 8:55:28 AM wrote:
Rich white people don't play "public" courses, especially near Northwest Roanoke. Too many blacks around.
I am also tired of the DO-NOTHING Roanoke government, talk, talk, talk. Reminds me of our Reps in Congress.
I think they should leave the area a green space used for meditation only. They could erect a memorial to all the "ancestors of slaves" from this area (not to the actual slaves, mind you), with an apology from every white person in the valley (once again, the white people alive NOW, not the slave-owners or God forbid the Africans who sold them to us evil white people).
They could name it for an African-American of high esteem.
You know Louis Farrakhan...Danny Glover someone like that. Sound good?
Just thought I'd throw out a few ridiculous statements of my own.
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tigerlilly on 8/5/2008 10:36:34 AM wrote:
We neighbors at Countryside have been in pergatory for three years. This needs to come to conclusion in our lifetime. With vision this property can be a draw to the struggle to get an occupant for the old J&J building and the greenway is following through the area - it is already listed by the airport hotels as an amenity and they have written letters asking that it remain a golf course. A competition indoor swim pool seems to be a need - where the defunct pool and tennis building exist and with William Fleming right across the street from it - all kinds of purposes would be served.
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roenoke on 8/5/2008 9:22:08 AM wrote:
Classic Roanoke...don't make any decision before dragging it out for a few years and wasting more money.
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Travelguy on 8/5/2008 9:04:17 AM wrote:
Keeping this trashy place for another few years? And then doing what? The City bought this land folks, they used our tax dollars to try to develop the land for economic development? The original intention wasn't to make a few golfers happy. I guess in the end the golfers will re:joice at our bungling city govt and we'll go this route again in another few years, ad nauseum. At least its worth a few jokes at the clubhouse.
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tigerlilly on 9/10/2007 10:48:30 AM wrote:
Italianboy,
That would be the ideal use of the property. It would include a very nice restaurant that would bring in tax dollars. The defunct pool area and tennis building could be made into a aquatic/fitness/rec center. Just think of the possibilities being so close to the airport hotels. We need a visionary.
I am amazed at the number of golfers that play here even with the drought. Let us hope we get visionarys on Council this year.
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Italianboy921 on 9/8/2007 9:53:57 PM wrote:
If I was the decision maker on this topic I would keep the golf course, revitalize it and build a clubhouse complete with all of the amenities you would find at any other reputable country club. It would increase the value of the homes already on the course and it would also generate income from mandatory dues that would be introduced as part of the luxury of living on the course. It would also create jobs for the hospitality industry as well as jobs for landscape artists and the other personnel it would take to run a full service country club.
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RoanokerSince80 on 8/21/2007 3:42:57 PM wrote:
Trash it.
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tigerlilly on 8/21/2007 11:33:02 AM wrote:
Petition is closed and 1,290 signatures were presented. Thanks to all who signed the online petition. The comments were excellent.
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GeorgiaBoy on 8/8/2007 11:38:40 AM wrote:
What in world are you talking about Tigerlilly?
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tigerlilly on 8/8/2007 11:34:36 AM wrote:
Since the confederate flag topic has hijacked the blog it has elminated any other topic. Complain to the Roanoke Times. The blog has turned into a message board. Unbelievable and a sad commentary of America that 116 blog comments on the confederate flag.
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Roanoketimesreader on 8/7/2007 3:42:37 PM wrote:
I am certain of one thing, dismissing the most recent development group was wise. This group represents many issues unknown to many and have a history of lacking integrity and honesty in business.
I think that going back to the drawing board and scrathing heads is an excellent idea. Much praise goes out to those who made this call. The people need to be heard and not ignored. Thank you to all who viewed this group's plan as a disappointment.
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vpetrazio on 8/7/2007 8:21:52 AM wrote:
I'm breathing a sigh of relief at the news regarding City Council firing the developer for Countryside Golf Course. My home is the newest home built in Countryside Estates, just three years old. We had no idea that the course would be sold and that a developer would propose putting a strip mall and main thoroughfare beside us. This situation should make people think twice about investing in a City where the almightly dollar matters more than the welfare and quality of life of its citizens.
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Travelguy on 8/6/2007 10:01:33 PM wrote:
Of course no:one will ever know why Roanoke City Council rejected this developers' proposal. Nothing the city council does surprises me anymore since everything is done behind closed doors anyway. I don't think they are telling us everything like usual. It sounds like they are thinking up some other great disaster and just got bored with Countryside.
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tigerlilly on 8/6/2007 9:32:16 PM wrote:
There is no way anyone whould live in an airport flight path and pay $300 + for a home and no amenity. No way! All the vacant retail around here. Who would shop here when they could go to Valley View. Has anyone thought of how that would effect William Fleming HS ... there is already a Shewels, and that big sports retailer coming across the street ... then making it a through street and a box store. What they could have at the pool and tennis area ... a great rec center for all in NW while keeping the money making golf course. There is NO better use for this property. The FAA has alot to say about building in a flightpath so close to a runway.
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Travelguy on 8/6/2007 8:51:12 PM wrote:
Don't you guys realize or understand Roanoke is getting poorer, the folks with $$ are moving out of the City? This was a chance to improve that area for people to stay here and invest $$ there. As it stands now, if it becomes a municipal golf course what a waste of such valuable land. I was surprised an out of town developer would want to put $$ in that area anyway to make it more "upscale". I was also surprised that neighboring residents didn't see the potential of increasing home values at Countryside. I think you guys have missed the bigger picture.
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roenoke on 8/6/2007 5:29:33 PM wrote:
Golf Sucks.
New stores are cool.
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DiamondDave on 8/6/2007 5:06:13 PM wrote:
Leave Countryside alone! Every city in America has big-box stores and new housing. What other city can say it has FOUR golf courses within city limits? What an awesome thing, and nobody is promoting it.
Progress in Roanoke should not be about building more of the same old crap that every other burg has. It should be about looking at what makes Roanoke unqiue and using that niche to sell ourselves.
Can't you read the slogan now? "Roanoke: We Have Chain Box Stores Along Our Freeway!" Whoop-de-do!
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tigerlilly on 8/6/2007 4:09:22 PM wrote:
Thank you, Travelguy, for buying me a golf course. You are too kind. There is a big difference in VS and CS. NO ONE asked the City to buy the golf course with our tax money and that includes the neighborhood who pays plenty of real estate taxes only to have their home values decimated.
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Travelguy on 8/6/2007 3:14:00 PM wrote:
TO CITY COUNCIL: PLEASE stop caving in to these anti-change, anti-economic development folks! As a city taxpayer WHY did you buy the Countryside property in the first place
if you only wanted to keep leasing out the golf course to satisfy these Save Countryside folks? Don't you remember the same scenario with Victory Stadium and that hole in the ground off Orange Ave(future site of an amphitheatre)? Is this just yet another waste of our taxpayer monies? What will the City taxpayers get out of keeping Countryside like it is? There has to be a better form of government out there than Roanoke's city council/mayoral type set-up!!
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tigerlilly on 8/6/2007 12:46:42 PM wrote:
It took almost a year for the city to realize that it was "totally unacceptable."
"The city now will discuss what to do with the golf course and will hold a work session for city council members some time soon."
WHAT WITHOUT NEIGHBORHOOD INPUT AGAIN - here we go again - secret closed door discussion on the neighborhood's fate!!!
"One option is continuing to lease the 18-hole course to the current operator" [forever].
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TCPits on 8/4/2007 10:29:19 PM wrote:
Travelguy, What do you mean that the Save Countryside group acts like the developement is going to take away the golf course? HELLO! The plan released in March includes a 9 hole golf course with the mayor claims will still be an "18 hole golf course".."you just play the course twice". DUH! Is Brookside's 9 hole par three course considered to be an "18 hole golf course"? NO! Do serious golfers go there? NO! Also, it's obvious you have never been around Countryside to see there IS "upscale" housing. I challenge you to drive on Laurel Ridge Rd. and it's feeder streets. Look at the homes that rival Hunting Hills. FYI: some of the Save Countryside group DO live in these upscale homes. Your post shows you know zero about that area of the city.
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tigerlilly on 8/3/2007 9:20:42 PM wrote:
Travelguy,
You are the only person I have heard actually say it is a good thing. By your post it is apparent you know nothing about the area. If you think homes in a flight path are going to be "high-end" then I am positive you lack knowledge of the area or the people. There is one abandoned development that was on the news last night a few blocks away. You also lack knowledge of the people who play golf here from all over the city and state at this affordable, public, golf course. I even wonder if you are from Roanoke or even live here now. Message boards don't require informed opinion as your posts illustrate. I notice you post as if you know something about everything but actually little about nothing.
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Travelguy on 8/3/2007 3:01:26 PM wrote:
As a city of Roanoke resident I think development of Countryside is the best idea I have heard for a long time. It is time we
bring more "upscale" housing to the Valley View Mall area. Your group makes it sound as if the development is taking away the golf course. SW Roanoke County is now at an overbuilt stage and future growth will occur within the City and towards the east at
Botetourt. It is encouraging to see developers interested in this part of Roanoke, as well as downtown. Instead of putting up barriers to progress lets embrace it as a positive thing for our community. Maybe if Countryside is built someday many of the "Save Countryside" folks may even decide to live there!!
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Travelguy on 8/3/2007 9:57:36 AM wrote:
SAVE COUNTRYSIDE GOLF COURSE...From what?
Who is going to "save" Countryside? Are all of the petioners who want to keep their favorite golf course hang-out think they can buy this property and keep it the way it is?
Maybe you guys can come up with something like you found an endangered bird that nests at Countryside and therefore the property should not be developed due to environmental concerns. Or better yet get with some of the other groups in Roanoke that love to fight city council and think up a new tactic. I am sure you can think of something original because so far it doesn't make any sense.
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tigerlilly on 8/3/2007 9:44:03 AM wrote:
Great letter on the savecountryside blog today. A letter from a son now who learned how to golf on Countryside and is now a Golf Professional & Operations Manager in Dalat, Vietnam.
http://savecountryside.blogspot.com/
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Newt999 on 7/25/2007 1:24:55 AM wrote:
At the website below you will see many comments left by signers of our "Save Countryside" petition.
The fact is that the people of Roanoke want to save Countryside and use it as a recreational resource for the entire city.
I heard of a petition started by the city where people can vote for the retail business they wish to see in Roanoke. They said that if one got 1,000 votes, they'd consider it.
Well, our Countryside paper petition will most likely top that figure easily and our online petition will expand that support. Perhaps the city needs to do some reconsidering.
Join US!
http://savecountryside.blogspot.com/2007/07/people-speak.html
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TCPits on 7/25/2007 12:09:10 AM wrote:
I agree with HillTop Lady. The NW annexed area was promised 30 years ago that there would be rec space developed. They are still waiting. The city now says it was before their time, so they don't have to keep that promise. Mr. Dowe's pretense of being for NW Rke is a joke. No wonder he lost the Peters Creek precinct last election. Washington Park is already a park. The Countryside annexed area has NO park or rec space. Countryside is ideal. It's highly visible from 581 and easily accessed from hotels/motels and the airport. Remodel the pool and indoor tennis courts. Keep the 18 hole golf course. There are five hotels/motels very close to the course. Run golf carts run between them and the course like the DT trolley will serve that area.
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bpullins on 7/24/2007 10:23:04 PM wrote:
From HillTop Lady:
My family and I live in the area and have greatly watched the changes to the Countryside property. Luckily, the homes that were built on the grounds have added to the appeal. Of course, Cove Road,which is the main access, has not been updated or improved since annexation.
Since the city has taken over, the uncertainty is unnecessary. Why not have a top-rated golf course in the northwest section of the city? Why not have the area listed as a tourist attraction, especially with the increase of motels/hotels in the area? Why not be as fair as possible to each and every section of the city?
Too bad we do not have the ward system re-established in our city. Maybe then someone would be accountable for us, too.
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tigerlilly on 7/22/2007 11:51:38 AM wrote:
Comment on RT artcile: Council decides to revise parks plan -
Retaining the Countryside Property would go a long way in correcting the lack of parks and recreation in Northwest City. There is a great spot RIGHT NEXT TO WILLIAM FLEMING HS. Why this city property is not considered for a recreation facility while retaining the golf course is a mystery. Golf revenue would subsidize an indoor competion pool - a draw to area. Points ignored by the consultant in the new master plan. Mr. Boucher, Dir. of Parks, told us at workshops that all the City needs to do was to give it to them to maintain and it. They could do it easily.
http://savecountryside.blogspot.com/
Petition:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/Countryside2RoyStanley/
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madmaxi on 7/19/2007 9:20:39 PM wrote:
Thanks for the update/correction on the J&J building, tigerlily. I must of missed that article, I stand humbly corrected. :0)
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Walker on 7/19/2007 4:38:49 PM wrote:
Global warming is natural and its happened many times before...
We didn't and haven't caused it.
Saving Countryside would be nice...but alas would affect the environment in no way.
Why is it that the temperatures on other planets have risen slightly as well? Did we cause that too?
I've eaten as much Chilean Sea Bass as I could....but I STILL don't get it.
Just a little hint to the lefty enviro-nuts out there. St. Al and the other Socialists have stopped calling it Global warming (because they know its a crock).
They are now calling it "Climate Change". You see... this term encompasses EVERY possible event, that way they can never be wrong, even when the weather is perfect.
Idiots.
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tigerlilly on 7/19/2007 12:08:43 PM wrote:
The J&J building on Frontage road was bought by Delta Dental for investment and to lease out space ... no takers yet. Here is the news article on that:
http://www.roanoke.com/business/wb/109597
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madmaxi on 7/19/2007 11:32:01 AM wrote:
Why don't they tear down the empty optical factory that was built next door,or do Bowers idea of reclaiming all those empty buildings that are never filled for years and decades if they want to make tax revenue,oh, wait empty buildings still have to pay taxes. I still think the Times needs to investigate the stock holdings, and investment, business interests of our city leaders, elected and appointed... smells like some are getting awfully wealthy with their construction, and other tie-ins(dare I say "kick-backs"). Leave the golf course as is, I feel for those who retired there under the understanding the Course would be there for decades to come. We need TREES in Rke, we are tearing them down faster and wonder why asthma rates are rising
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tigerlilly on 7/17/2007 5:00:20 PM wrote:
Name is NOT tied to golf course fate.
Very misleading headline and goes to show what one ill-conceived headline can do to a cause like saving Countryside Golf Course for a community. Journalists have no control over the headlines - I sure would like to know who does and what their connection might be and their personal opinion. Maybe the editorial board writes the headlines.
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tigerlilly on 7/13/2007 9:09:14 AM wrote:
I'd like to thank Dick and Dave of Q99 for supporting keeping Countryside Golf Course. Dick and Dave play Countryside often.
Thanks again to the Breakfast Club for promoting our online petition here:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/Countryside2RoyStanley/
and our blog here:
http://savecountryside.blogspot.com/
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Newt999 on 7/11/2007 11:12:14 PM wrote:
Throwing it all away. That's what the city leaders will accomplish by paving Countryside. It makes no sense to me.
The Northwest has no recreation facility, promised so long ago during annexation. With some imagination, effort, and minimal financial investment, Countryside could fulfill that need for the whole community. An attractive green recreation space featuring golf, swimming, tennis, biking/walking trails all located within sight of a growing airport, major transportation artery, shopping mall, and hotel center...how is that a bad investment?
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TCPits on 7/9/2007 10:19:48 PM wrote:
DEVELOP!DEVELOP!DEVELOP! That's what we hear constantly from our city gov. Why is it necessary to develop every bit of greenspace (except Elmwood Park)? Could it be to finance the pet projects they have going and continue to present? It's time we "think outside the box" and be proactive and preserve greenspace, reduce pollution, and do our part to control global warming in our little part of the world. Read the article "Life" which is on pg. 69 of Time's July 2,2007, issue. Then, go to the following link to see how we stand in Roanoke. http://www.americanforests.org/downloads/rea/AF_Roanoke2.pdf
Look at the city from Mill Mtn. Is the view as clear as it was a few years ago? No. Why? Development yields fewer trees and more pollution.
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tigerlilly on 7/9/2007 10:04:10 PM wrote:
New deadline for developers to respond is August 1st.
Support the name change from Countryside to Roy Stanley Memorial Golf Course and sign petition here:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/Countryside2RoyStanley/
Thank you
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tigerlilly on 7/5/2007 3:39:41 PM wrote:
Please sign the petition to support renaming Countryside Golf Course to Roy Stanley Memorial Golf Course as submitted by Councilman Sherman Lea. It also asks you to support keeping the property in its entirety as a City owned Municipal Golf Course and more.
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/Countryside2RoyStanley/
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tigerlilly on 6/18/2007 12:42:11 PM wrote:
Since I can't get the blog to work to comment on today's Countryside Commentary I will do it here. Kudos to Ms. Solomon and I hope she joins us in attending City Council meeting this evening.
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tigerlilly on 5/1/2007 10:13:53 PM wrote:
May 2, 2005 - two years since Roanoke City took the option to purchase the property. The City is sitting on some news ... they won't tell the neighbors.
http://savecountryside.blogspot.com/
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tigerlilly on 4/21/2007 9:24:08 AM wrote:
Visit this blog for updates on Countryside with an idea supported by some Fleming graduates to keep Countryside and include a memorial for the VT victims especially Henh Ly who graduated from Fleming. A memorial service for Heny Ly is Sunday, April 22, at noon in the WF auditorium.
http://savecountryside.blogspot.com/
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tigerlilly on 4/4/2007 3:50:55 PM wrote:
Yes, cleanup does need to be done. However, there is a very, very small portion of the course that gets trash. The new homes are clean as a pin. Areas like in front of the Tennis building where the HS kids hang out as and "love birds" gets tons of trash. There is also a lovers lane near the pavilion. Our community trys to keep it up best we can ... just last week we requested inmates to pick up what we could not and they came right away. We were very appreciative. Just for the record we are upper middle class for the most part. There are 250 to 300K homes around the course. The City thinks we are such a good neighborhood they want to destroy the community to SAVE it ... huh?
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TripleActionJones on 4/4/2007 3:46:31 PM wrote:
"Travelguy on 4/4/2007 2:44:05 PM wrote:
She said the students from the school would cross busy Hershberger Road and there would be all kinds of woes. How stupid!"
Heh......I went to Fleming for my 10th and part of my 11th grade year before moving to the PH side of town.
And.....we used to skip school,cross Hershberger and go hang at Valley View mall.A lot of kids did.
Just thought it funny you mentioned it like it would never happen and it did and probably still does.
Not sure if it causes woes or not,just stating what happened/happens.
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transplantedknight on 4/4/2007 3:07:36 PM wrote:
I live in the county but I love CS. It's good to shake things up sometimes and spruce up areas but in this case give it to parks & rec and let our whole valley have a place where REAL people who love the game can play golf. Membership shouldn't be required to play golf. Don't forgot those who live here while you are trying to reach a younger generation. If the current citizens of an area are being taken care of and love being here, others will want to be here too. Not everyone should have to make a six-figure salary to be considered valuable to the area.
Some clean up does need to be done but don't go overboar and get rid of a great place for families to enjoy an AFFORDABLE outing.
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Travelguy on 4/4/2007 2:44:05 PM wrote:
If you go back about 25 years, a teacher from Fleming led an opposition to Valley View Mall. She said the students from the school would cross busy Hershberger Road and there would be all kinds of woes. How stupid!
I live in Roanoke and I favor this development. The city needs the economic development, more tax revenue and jobs this project will create. I wonder how many folks who oppose this project really live in the Countryside area and how many really are fond of their beloved Countryside Golf course. I think the later.
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tigerlilly on 4/4/2007 2:20:09 PM wrote:
If you think there is trash now from the people who cut through the neighborhood to Peters Creek just wait until they open up the road from Ferncliff through there - as one teacher said last night - the kids will cut class even more and go to those retail shops.
If you want trash you'll get it big time with this development. Travelguy can't be from the community - there was NO ONE last night talking like he is ... a shill and not one of our community.
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Travelguy on 4/4/2007 1:57:22 PM wrote:
COME ON ROANOKE, GET WITH IT!!
Currently the Countryside area is shabby! I frequently walk around the golf course and there is trash everywhere. The access road is dangerous with speeding drunk drivers. I can't understand why some neighbors want to keep the status quo. I am a neighbor and I welcome the new housing, retail and offices.
If a developer wants to develop this area, it will be a vast improvement. If it stays the same, it will go down even further. Please, Roanoke City Council, SHOW SOME LEADERSHIP and vote for this development. Lets get on with it!!
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tigerlilly on 4/4/2007 11:55:34 AM wrote:
About the location of the retail to make you aware - it is in the flight path to runway 6 and in the 65 DNL noise level. FedEx taking off and strobe lights flashing in your window would be a shocker to anyone living close to the runway. That is where the retail is planned. Planned in the part where homes were torn down in the '80s because of the airport. Other localities require a "Disclosure" statement to anyone moving within a set amount of distance from an airport in any real estate transaction. Needless to say - our locality does not - does not want to protect its citizens. Also, no lights to detract incoming pilots are allowed per FAA. A plane crash with fatalities occured where they are planning retail in 1994 on fairway 13.
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svecntryside on 4/4/2007 10:25:52 AM wrote:
Countryside is a good golf course, and I would hate to see it go to waste. I have to agree with the others that have posted here. I think it would be an injustice to destroy this golf course for more retail. There is land in other parts of this area that can be used for retail. Countryside should remain a golf course. Good luck to everyone that will be trying to help save it, and I hope we/ you succeed.
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roenoke on 4/4/2007 10:10:14 AM wrote:
I think this would be a great opportunity to get some of those high end retailers and chain restaurants everyone has been wanting so badly.
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Walker on 4/4/2007 10:07:21 AM wrote:
Simple enough, hand it over to Parks and Rec. Or we could bitch about it for the next 5 years and watch it go to hell, like the Stadium.
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tigerlilly on 4/4/2007 8:58:22 AM wrote:
If you see the injustice here please go to City Council Meeting 7:00 PM on April 16th and voice your opposition. Council is the only ones who can change direction and view this property as recreation not just tax base for recreation in other parts of the city.
If you want to join us at the Countryside Neighborhood Alliance meeting on April 9th at the Holiday Inn on Frontage Road at 7:00 PM, please join us as we plan to save the golf course for the everyone.
By the way - attending every Parks and Rec meeting for the master plan - Steve Boucher, Dir., of Parks and Rec said the would have no problem maintaining the course - all is needed is for the city to hand it to them.
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tatuboy on 4/4/2007 7:06:29 AM wrote:
Countryside is a golf course for your everyday golfer. It is not "exclusive" or snooty, and you can spend a day there without spending a fortune. I think the city is blinded by the $$$ and not thinking about what is best for the residents of Roanoke City. I live in the city, I play golf at Countryside, and I don't want to see it go away. Let parks and rec run it, and maintain it, an let the residents of Roanoke enjoy it the way it was meant to be!
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